Post subject: translation of 17:13, 36:18-19 and 7:131
Assalam alaykum brothers
AhmedBahgat how are you?
i would appreciate some help with the following word طائر which is translated differently in some verses. what is the true meaning of the word in these verses
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Post subject: Re: translation of 17:13, 36:18-19 and 7:131
shindeiru wrote:
Assalam alaykum brothers
AhmedBahgat how are you?
i would appreciate some help with the following word طائر which is translated differently in some verses. what is the true meaning of the word in these verses
The word Ta'ir is not easy to translate in one English word
The word sort of means the thoughts of your mind, so if I try to put in every context of the verses you posted, I believe it should sort of mean the worllowinhg
Sort of that when misfortune strike them, they go to Musa balming him with total crap of thoughts that originated in their minds, so the verse continue by saying that whatever thoughts they used against Musa, it will be recorded with Allah.
Again mate, I tried to use the best of my knowsdge, I can also say the word is hard and not common, however in very rare cases it can be used to describe a crazy man, sort of that the thoughts are flying hard in his mind that he ended up being crazy
I amnot sure how I translated it be honest, however, it is going to be something that I need to look at carefully again when I finish the draft, then go over the whole Quran again, word for word, this is where the consistance will be increased as well the typos and other errors will be eliminated, inshaallah
Post subject: Re: translation of 17:13, 36:18-19 and 7:131
hi bro and thanks
so would you say that ta'ir has only a negative connotation? i dont know if it occurs elswehere in the quran, but in these verses it seems to be in a negative context where the people are told that they bear full responsibility for their ta'ir
Posted:
Sun 29 Mar, 2009 11:33 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject: Re: translation of 17:13, 36:18-19 and 7:131
shindeiru wrote:
hi bro and thanks
so would you say that ta'ir has only a negative connotation? i dont know if it occurs elswehere in the quran, but in these verses it seems to be in a negative context where the people are told that they bear full responsibility for their ta'ir
Salam mate
The word itself is driven from a root to mean to fly, sort of the thoughts fly in the head
It is really tough one to describe mate, and it will be a challenge for me during phase 2 of Free Islam translation
I believe that the word is associated with negative connotation from the permise that it means metaphorically that they had enough from the messengers after concluding in their heads that the messengers are liars
The word Tayr with a Ya, appeard about 25 times in the Quran, about 20 times of those 25, it means its literal meaning, a bird
the other 5 times or even less, sort of a metaohor to mean that they just had enough of them until their heads started to fly.
Now, the word Ta'ir, with a Hamza appeared about 5 times, 1 of those times means literal meaning, while the other 4 means the thoughts the fly in the heads, and when used as a verb, it is sort of that they had enough after what they heard caused their heads to fly in confusion
This is a very tough Quran word btw, yet it is still used commonly by the Arabs even in their street language, for example it is commonly said by an Arab who was driven mad by some thoughts or ideas said by another person, Inta Tayart Demaghy, i.e. you caused my head to fly, due to the fact that what he heard made his head to really work hard without reaching a conclusion which resulted that the person who is saying it sort of accusing the other of being crazy (indirectly), let me clarify that with a simple example
imagine we have two persons, person A and person B, now here is a possible dialogue between the two:
Person A is explaining to Person B the theory of relativity
Person B could NOT understand a thing, so he said to person A:
Inta Tayart Demaghy, sort of you made my head to fly so that I cannot understand a thing of what you are saying.
The arrogant will use it in a sort of a manner of indirect mocking, i.e. you made me crazy because you are crazy (indirectly)
Finally I believe the word was never used in a positive connotation except when it is used to mean its literal means, To fly or A Bird
Post subject: Re: translation of 17:13, 36:18-19 and 7:131
AhmedBahgat wrote:
This is a very tough Quran word btw, yet it is still used commonly by the Arabs even in their street language, for example it is commonly said by an Arab who was driven mad by some thoughts or ideas said by another person, Inta Tayart Demaghy, i.e. you caused my head to fly
yes definately, now that you mention this common familiar arabic expression.
im lebanese and we do very often say "inta tayyartani min 3aqli" lit. "you made me fly away from my mind" in the sense that "you confused me". so the word does have a negative connotation.
at first i thought it could be neutral because of 17:13 where i was assuming that Allah was saying that each person is responsible for his choices (good or bad) but i guess that, considering its use throughout the quran and its widely understood meaning, ta'ir means sort of "confusion".
so this renders 17:13 as Allah saying that each person's confusion is tied around his neck (ie eachone is responsible for it) and this is reinforced by the ending of the verse which says that eachone will be told to read from his book of deeds to testify to this fact, that he is the sole responsible for his confusion.
this is indeed passioning, this tough work of translating the quran. good luck bro
another quick question, did you refute the FFI people on 16:69 and the bees eating thamaraat in the past? i wouldnt be surprised if they ignored it and kept playing their old tune, as they usually do.
my arabic skills are very basic (never learned it at school) so i based my refutation on the use of fakiha and thamaraat throughout the quran, and thanks to your accessquran i managed to quickly find the verses where these words are used.
Posted:
Mon 30 Mar, 2009 9:20 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject: Re: translation of 17:13, 36:18-19 and 7:131
AhmedBahgat wrote:
This is a very tough Quran word btw, yet it is still used commonly by the Arabs even in their street language, for example it is commonly said by an Arab who was driven mad by some thoughts or ideas said by another person, Inta Tayart Demaghy, i.e. you caused my head to fly
shindeiru wrote:
yes definately, now that you mention this common familiar arabic expression.
im lebanese and we do very often say "inta tayyartani min 3aqli" lit. "you made me fly away from my mind" in the sense that "you confused me". so the word does have a negative connotation.
Cool that you are an Arab, now we talk the same language with just different accent, however you indeed confirmed that it is widely used in such context by most Arabs, I actually meant in my comment by Arabs, the Egyptians, as those are the ones whom I mostely speak with.
shindeiru wrote:
at first i thought it could be neutral because of 17:13 where i was assuming that Allah was saying that each person is responsible for his choices (good or bad) but i guess that, considering its use throughout the quran and its widely understood meaning, ta'ir means sort of "confusion".
so this renders 17:13 as Allah saying that each person's confusion is tied around his neck (ie eachone is responsible for it) and this is reinforced by the ending of the verse which says that eachone will be told to read from his book of deeds to testify to this fact, that he is the sole responsible for his confusion.
Exactly, in fact, i will try to see if i can implement the word confusion or a variation of it when I start phase 2 in Free islam translation
shindeiru wrote:
this is indeed passioning, this tough work of translating the quran. good luck bro
thanks mate, I actually enjoy it to the max, and indeed on the days that i do not do at least 20 verses, I feel that I am missing something.
shindeiru wrote:
another quick question, did you refute the FFI people on 16:69 and the bees eating thamaraat in the past?
About 20 times man, but they are too stubborn and confused to understand the language from those who are professional in it, I have such debates on my web site some where
shindeiru wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if they ignored it and kept playing their old tune, as they usually do.
Most certainly, and you should also see a few known goons from them who quickly step when the issue is opened, like cassie, troll pragmatist, piss, brenda and a few others, it is like they theink of themselves that they are bee expersts, lol
shindeiru wrote:
my arabic skills are very basic (never learned it at school) so i based my refutation on the use of fakiha and thamaraat throughout the quran, and thanks to your accessquran i managed to quickly find the verses where these words are used.
You are one 100% spot on mate, that is exactly how I have refuted them, I will try to find the debate for you and post a link for you
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Post subject:
Dear brother shindeiru
One importnat note please, did you notice that piss_cohot of ffi, is trying to stir the air between us, be careful of such freak, you should life dismiss him, he is indeed stalking me now for 5 years the arsehole, so the best course of action to deal with such filthy stalkers is to dismiss them and if you can ignore them totally, it will be better, of course you should reserve your right to reply to anyone of them after you dismissed them, if you chose, this is how the game is played with such freaks
Now for the Bee verse
you are 100% right regarding the words Thamarat and Fakiha
see, every Fakiha is Thamarah, but not every Thamarah is Fakiha
so the best translation for the word Thamarat should be: The produce of the vegetation
Now for the word Sharab, while I totally agree with you that the verses is talking about honey, it is actually talking INDIRECTLY, i.e. the honey word (Asal) was never used in the verse, rather the word "Sharab", which should mean "Drink"
This is important to disable those filthy kafirs who will try their best to manipulate the words in the verse to cook a contradiction, now with the Quran use of the word Sharab instead of Asal, it actually makes their manipulations DUST IN THIN AIR,
For us as believers, we know that later on such DRINK will be Asal (Honey)
Therefore by using the true meaning of the word Sharab as Drink, instead of Asal (honey), you will totally disable such kafirs and make them reach a dead end
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Mon 30 Mar, 2009 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Mon 30 Mar, 2009 5:42 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Salam again bro
Here is one document that I found when I debated their crap regarding the bees/honey and their Tom and Jerry contradiction:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed
Hello mate,
Tvebak wrote:
Just a dumb question does, but was is meant by the highlighted part?
Quote:
Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.
Cheers
LOL, ironically I expected this question and was going to reply to it in advance but said to myself, let me see if someone can come with it, so I won?????????????????????¢??t consider it a dumb question at all
Let me try to work out what you want to say:
-> The verse used the following words كُلِي مِن كُلِّ الثَّمَرَاتِ , Kuli Min Kul Al Thamarat, i.e. eat of all the produce, so what you may have wrongly understood that the verse says ALL TYPES of Thamarat, this is not the case at all, the word Kul generally implies as such and for those who lack Arabic, they will always consider it as such, in Arabic we may use it to refer to a sub group of a group, for example, if some one whom I hired to wash 7 cars that I have and that person looked at the cars and asked me which car to wash, I will tell Kul Al Arabiat, i.e. All the cars, that does not mean all the cars on the planet of course.
-> You would have had a valid argument if the Quran said it as such : كُلِي مِن ثمرات كل شيء , Kuli Min Thamrat Kul Shai, i.e. eat of the produce of all things, as you can see in the above made up sentence by myself, the word Kul is now referring to Shai, Thing not to Thamarat, i.e. EVERY THING THAT PRODUCE THAMRAT, but surely the verse didn?????????????????????¢??t word it as such, therefore it can be referring to a sub group of Al Thamarat which the bees can use as a source of food in vicinity where they settle, some may collect their food from all the Thamarat available in their vicinity while others may be collecting their food from a totally different Thamarat that are available in their vicinity
Let me now show an example of how the Quran used the words : ثمرات كل شيء , Thamrat Kul Shai, i.e. the produce of all things, I will bring Yusuf Ali translation and Picthal to show how both contradict their own selves:
YUSUFALI: They say: "If we were to follow the guidance with thee, we should be snatched away from our land." Have We not established for them a secure sanctuary, to which are brought as tribute fruits of all kinds,- a provision from Ourselves? but most of them understand not.
PICKTHAL: And they say: If we were to follow the Guidance with thee we should be torn out of our land. Have We not established for them a sure sanctuary, whereunto the produce of all things is brought (in trade), a provision from Our presence? But most of them know not. [The Quran ; 28:57]
وَقَالُوا إِن نَّتَّبِعِ الْهُدَى مَعَكَ نُتَخَطَّفْ مِنْ أَرْضِنَا أَوَلَمْ نُمَكِّن لَّهُمْ حَرَمًا آمِنًا يُجْبَى إِلَيْهِ ثَمَرَاتُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ رِزْقًا مِن لَّدُنَّا وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (57)
-> Firstly, see how the words about Al Thamarat were put down in the above verse يُجْبَى إِلَيْهِ ثَمَرَاتُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ , Tugba Elaihi Thamarat Kul Shai, i.e. whereunto the produce of all things is brought, and as you can see the word I mentioned earlier ثَمَرَاتُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ , Thamarat Kul Shai, i.e. The produce of every thing, had these words been used in 16:69 with the bees, surely you would have had a valid argument, but unfortunately the words are not used in The produce of every thing 16:69,
Let?????????????????????¢??s me now prove to you that I can expose those ignorant translators with ease , I the above verse both Yusuf Ali and Pickthal translated the word Thamarat as follow:
-> Yusuf Ali : fruits
-> Pickthal : the produce
Obviously Yusuf Ali is wrong and Pickthal is right
Now, let?????????????????????¢??s see what they have done with the same word Thamarat used in the bee verse:
YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.
PICKTHAL: Then eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of thy Lord, made smooth (for thee). There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues, wherein is healing for mankind. Lo! herein is indeed a portent for people who reflect. [The Quran ; 16:69]
ثُمَّ كُلِي مِن كُلِّ الثَّمَرَاتِ فَاسْلُكِي سُبُلَ رَبِّكِ ذُلُلاً يَخْرُجُ مِن بُطُونِهَا شَرَابٌ مُّخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ فِيهِ شِفَاء لِلنَّاسِ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لآيَةً لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (69)
-> See how both ignorant translators contradicted their own selves:
-> Yusuf Ali : the produce
-> Pickthal : fruits
In this verse, Yusuf Ali is right and Pickthal is wrong
Surely because they contradicted their own selves then their translation can not be trusted as a whole
I found it very funny indeed, it is like a piece of cake for me and surely if I finish my translation inshaalalh, it will be unique
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Post subject:
Here is another one mate:
Here is another document that I found:
Hello all
Let me let the Quran shows you what I?????????????????????¢??m talking about, I know that many kafirs will be banging their pinheads into walls seeing one of their Tom and Jerry alleged errors biting the dust.
If you remember well, this is what I said in one fo my comments:
[quote=?????????????????????¢??????????????????????AhmedBahgat]The kafir say the Quran said the Honey comes out of the Bee Bellies
I say, the Quran never mentioned Honey in the verse, it only mentioned Sharab, which means a drink, i.e. something that is liquid [/quote]
[quote=?????????????????????¢??????????????????????AhmedBahgat]I also say, the Honey is not drinkable but eatable, therefore what the Quran said can not be Honey for two reasons:
1) It never called it Honey despite the Quran used the word Honey in other verses
2) It never called that Sharab eatable, rather drinkable (from the word Sharab), as well the Quran never said who is drinking it, neither the bees nor the humans[/quote]
Let me now show you a similar sign mentioned in the Quran that clearly tells us almost the same as the case with Bee, i.e. another creature that Allah created and we drink something from its bellies, however in this case we will be informed with what drink that is, as well we will be informed that such drink is for the humans to drink it:
And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies-- from betwixt the feces and the blood-- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink. [The Quran ; 16:66]
وَإِنَّ لَكُمْ فِي الْأَنْعَامِ لَعِبْرَةً ۖ نُسْقِيكُمْ مِمَّا فِي بُطُونِهِ مِنْ بَيْنِ فَرْثٍ وَدَمٍ لَبَنًا خَالِصًا سَائِغًا لِلشَّارِبِينَ (66)
-> See: And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle;, next we read that we get a drink from its bellies: We give you to drink of what is in their bellies, from betwixt faeces and blood, then the Quran tells us what is name of such drink: pure milk, then the Quran tells that this milk is going to be great for the drinkers: easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink., i.e. the milk is for drink
Now, compare such verse in the same very sura # 16 which is only 3 verse before the bee verse # 69 and you should know what I?????????????????????¢??m talking about then you should dismiss yourself
In 16:66, Allah is telling us:
1) We get a drink from the bellies of the cattle
2) Such drink is Milk
3) Such Milk is a great drink for the drinkers
In 16:69, Allah never told us:
1) There should be a drink from the bellies of the Bees
2) Such drink was never called Honey
3) Such drink was never called great nor for the drinkers, rather something that may be used to heal humans
You would have had a valid argument if the Quran said it as such : كُلِي مِن ثمرات كل شيء , Kuli Min Thamrat Kul Shai, i.e. eat of the produce of all things
wassalaam
i actually used simple common sense to refute this objection of theirs, that the verse is addressing the bee, telling it to eat from all the thamaraat so it MUST be talking about the thamaraat FOR IT. the verse was not telling it to eat grass, the thamaraat of the cow loool.
these are obvious things for us believers but for the ennemy of faith and guidance, its even more complicated than the theory of relativity.
but if we add to simple common sense, arabic expertise and the proof from the quran as you did above, then this objection is reduced to rubbles. poor FFI
Posted:
Mon 30 Mar, 2009 9:46 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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shindeiru wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
You would have had a valid argument if the Quran said it as such : كُلِي مِن ثمرات كل شيء , Kuli Min Thamrat Kul Shai, i.e. eat of the produce of all things
wassalaam
i actually used simple common sense to refute this objection of theirs, that the verse is addressing the bee, telling it to eat from all the thamaraat so it MUST be talking about the thamaraat FOR IT. the verse was not telling it to eat grass, the thamaraat of the cow loool.
these are obvious things for us believers but for the ennemy of faith and guidance, its even more complicated than the theory of relativity.
but if we add to simple common sense, arabic expertise and the proof from the quran as you did above, then this objection is reduced to rubbles. poor FFI
Your common sense is great indeed, but trust me mate, they will never acceot common sense, so do not waste your time with the hard core kafirs like piss and his boy friend pragmatist
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Salam mate
I have reached 2 verses in Sura 36 which use the word Tair in such context we discussed, I have concentrated a bit on these two verses in my draft and I believe this is the most proper way to translate it, I may have translated the word in previous verses in my draft differntly but when I start the final phase after finishing the draft inshaallah, all these dicrepencies will be taken care of, here is the two verses and would welcome any feedback from you:
They said: Indeed, we are driven crazy by you. If you do not stop; we will surely stone you, and there will certainly touch you from us a painful torture. [Al Quran ; 36:18]
i will give you my rendering of the verse depending on the way i understand it, it is the same as yours but maybe with different words. and with your superior arabic skills you should see if it conforms with the arabic of the quran.
36:18
They said: we are confused by you. If you do not stop; we will surely stone you, and there will certainly touch you from us a painful torture.
36:19
Your confusion is from you, arent you being reminded? Rather, you are an extravagant people.
Posted:
Sat 18 Apr, 2009 8:16 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Salam bro
Thanks man, I am considering your feedback, I just want to make sure that the word confused was not used to mean another Arabic word in the Quran
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Salam brother shindeiru
I have used the word Confused, for the Arabic word "Sakara", because I believe that Sakara does not always mean intoxicated by alcohol, because there a verse in the Quran that says on the JD the people will be Sakara, and I thought it should mean confused because every drunk must be confused, but not every Confused is drunk
I may be wrong, but can you please help in resolving the issue between the two words, Tair, and Sakara, unless you see that both mean 'confused', and in this case I have no problem I just need your confirmation, on the other hand even if the two Arabic words imply confusion, I prefer to use two different synonymous English words to refer to each Arabic words
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