Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: The Great English Quran Project
Hello all
This is something I woiuld like to start asap, I have this idea for about 3 years now and really believe it is about time to start it
After going through many English translations in many years, I believe there is none that is accurate, this causes a lot of confusion to the non Arabic speakers, I do believe it is a responsibility on those who know Arabic to help those who don't know Arabic
What I would like to do is this:
1) Create a solid team to take on the project
2) We will start from the beginning of the Quran and move on verse by verse
3) For each verse, if the translation is clear then we dont need to waste our time by going through all 30 odd translations just pick one then all of us must agree on it
4) If we use a verse translation by any translator, we will need to keep track of which one we used
5) If we can't find an accurate one from all avaiable ones then we need to create our own accurate one, all of us must agree on the new verse translation
Please all, Life, Quraishi, The, SOA and others, I will need your help to make this come true, there will be no human who will take credit for it, however we just need to explain ourselves in a reface of course, we will dedicate it to Allah as an appreciaten to continuous His guidance to us
Please let me know what do you think and if there is any other issues that we should account for
If this all goes well, I hope I will be able to print it in a decent book and distribute for free to any non Arabic speaker who wants it
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
So I suppose this will be a 'Qur'an translation committee', it's a great idea:
Quote:
This is something I woiuld like to start asap, I have this idea for about 3 years now and really believe it is about time to start it
After going through many English translations in many years, I believe there is none that is accurate, this causes a lot of confusion to the non Arabic speakers, I do believe it is a responsibility on those who know Arabic to help those who don't know Arabic
I feel exactly the same way, this will be an opportunity to translate the Qur'an as literally as possible whilst still making it understandable in English.
Posted:
Wed 09 May, 2007 8:58 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Al-Quraishi wrote:
So I suppose this will be a 'Qur'an translation committee', it's a great idea:
Yeh bro, and it will be open for all to participate, we need to create some solid guidlines in place to help us get this project in the best way ever
Quote:
This is something I woiuld like to start asap, I have this idea for about 3 years now and really believe it is about time to start it
After going through many English translations in many years, I believe there is none that is accurate, this causes a lot of confusion to the non Arabic speakers, I do believe it is a responsibility on those who know Arabic to help those who don't know Arabic
Al-Quraishi wrote:
I feel exactly the same way, this will be an opportunity to translate the Qur'an as literally as possible whilst still making it understandable in English.
Exactly, that is one of the guidlines, we must restrict ourselves to the literal meaning unless there is a compelling reason from the Quran not to take it literal
we also need to settle many issues, for example we need to work out of we are going to translate some words, like Muslim, Islam, Muslimeen, Mislimoon, etc
we may also create a preface for every sura, a thread for us to finalise each verse then the thread of the confirmed translations, we also may add foot notes at the ned of every sura to explain a few issues, respond to any related alleged contradiction, respond to any alleged and false allegation by the prograssive Muslims or any other sect
There must be far more guidlines than this, we need to create a thread for the guidlines that we will adhere to during the project
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
Yeah, we need a set of guidlines, in terms of the naming translation I think if we do it on a case to case basis for some things, other things like Allah should be translated as God, there's no reason why it should be left untranslated, English has the equivalent word, every language has it, we could translate ilah as god or deity.
Hmmm, what else, oh, and we shoud set some methods down:
Howsabout we make a literal translation of each word in a sentence:
For example, for La Ilaha Illa Allah - it would be literally be - No go except/but God, however, obviously English requires additional syntax to Arabic in terms of making it understandable/readable - so we would have to decide something like - There is no deity except God
And you know, for things like Muslim, I have always thought sumbitter/sumbission wherever the words arise should be put instead of Arabic word, the reason simply is for the sake of the English reader's understanding. They will understand what being a Muslim is all about whereas too many non-Arabic (and even Arabic) speakers have forgot the best state for us to be in. The translation being in the English Qur'an wouldn't stop us from using the Arabic term.
Posted:
Wed 09 May, 2007 7:46 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Al-Quraishi wrote:
Yeah, we need a set of guidlines,
Thanks bro, can I humbly ask you to take charge of giving us the kick start by creating the first draft of the guidlines then we discuss it untill we all are comfortable with it then we start translating, this is going to take a few years bro
Al-Quraishi wrote:
in terms of the naming translation I think if we do it on a case to case basis for some things, other things like Allah should be translated as God,
That is something that we surely need to discuss within the verses translation and even before we start, I say Allah should stay as Allah, because Allah does not mean God as far as the arabic is concerned, also I dont buy it that Allah is a combination of Al Illah, because if you look closely you will see that the letter I was removed after combined, on the other had all other names of Allah in the Quran has the two words wittout any letter ommition, like Al Aziz, Al Jabbar, etc therefore if Allah is Al Illah then it has to be Al Illah not Allah,
We should finalise this important issue because Allah is mentioned a lot in His Quran and we should setlle on what we will do, please remember that the word Ilah was mentioned in the Quran, i.e. when we translate it, it should be "God" because Ilah in Arabic means God but not Allah
Al-Quraishi wrote:
there's no reason why it should be left untranslated,
I say it should be left untranslated then explained in footnotes, at least it will help them to pronounce it in Arabic, i.e. they are learning Arabic to a degree
Al-Quraishi wrote:
English has the equivalent word, every language has it, we could translate ilah as god or deity.
I agree, therefore Ilah = God, and Allah = Allah, for the Muslim and other words, we can use it as is if translating it requires a sentence and not one word, then in the footnotes we explain it in as many words as possible
Al-Quraishi wrote:
Hmmm, what else, oh, and we shoud set some methods down:
Yes please, for example, when we translate a word and we meet this word again we have to use the same English word we used and be 100% consistant
Al-Quraishi wrote:
Howsabout we make a literal translation of each word in a sentence:
This has been done by many and only causes confusion because you can't take the Quran 100% literal, we can only stick to literal as much as we can as long as there is no compelling signs that we should not take it literal
Al-Quraishi wrote:
For example, for La Ilaha Illa Allah - it would be literally be - No go except/but God,
I totally disagree with that, "La Ilah Ila Allah" should be translated as "No god but Allah"
Al-Quraishi wrote:
however, obviously English requires additional syntax to Arabic in terms of making it understandable/readable -
Exactly, and we can use the footnotes for that with numbering next to the words (using the forum posting superscript bbcode feature) to make it easy for the readers to follow the notes according to the ref no next to the words that left untranslated
Al-Quraishi wrote:
so we would have to decide something like - There is no deity except God
Sure, but I honestly believe that it should be No god but Allah, or No deity but Allah, as long as Allah stays the same because Allah is His name, this is obvious in the Bismellah
Al-Quraishi wrote:
And you know, for things like Muslim, I have always thought sumbitter/sumbission wherever the words arise should be put instead of Arabic word,
I agree with that, however the word itself means to submit to any one, in the religion context it only means to submit to Allah, on the other hand we see the word used when prophet Solaiman asked the Queen of sheba to submit to him, so I say we need to somehow deffrentiate between the two actions of submitting to a human and submitting to Allah
Al-Quraishi wrote:
the reason simply is for the sake of the English reader's understanding.
we will have an intense note reference inshaallah that should make the life of the English readers easier in understanding the Quran as a whole
Al-Quraishi wrote:
They will understand what being a Muslim is all about whereas too many non-Arabic (and even Arabic) speakers have forgot the best state for us to be in.
I agree
Al-Quraishi wrote:
The translation being in the English Qur'an wouldn't stop us from using the Arabic term.
Exactly, it is only to help those who lack Arabic to get closer to the language and fully understand the Quran in English inshaallah
Let's keep this discussion going and I guess you may start taking notes regading the first draft of the guidlines please
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
Quote:
I say Allah should stay as Allah, because Allah does not mean God as far as the arabic is concerned, also I dont buy it that Allah is a combination of Al Illah, because if you look closely you will see that the letter I was removed after combined, on the other had all other names of Allah in the Quran has the two words wittout any letter ommition, like Al Aziz, Al Jabbar, etc therefore if Allah is Al Illah then it has to be Al Illah not Allah,
Yes, I agree the word Allah doesn't fit with other stuff and is different, even the pronunciation of the LL and shadda isn't as straightforward as many people would presume.
However in terms of concepts, every language has a word for Allah, and God does suffice. God has obviously enabled every human being on this Earth no matter what language they speak the ability to worship him whether they choose to or not, and that includes the use of at least one proper name.
Quote:
We should finalise this important issue because Allah is mentioned a lot in His Quran and we should setlle on what we will do, please remember that the word Ilah was mentioned in the Quran, i.e. when we translate it, it should be "God" because Ilah in Arabic means God but not Allah
And please remember to read the full sentence before you comment!
Quote:
I agree, therefore Ilah = God, and Allah = Allah, for the Muslim and other words, we can use it as is if translating it requires a sentence and not one word, then in the footnotes we explain it in as many words as possible
No, it's the letter at the start that's important, in English - ilah = god and Allah = God
This distinction is very clear in the English language i.e. 'Ancient Greeks worshipped many gods'
Yes please, for example, when we translate a word and we meet this word again we have to use the same English word we used and be 100% consistant
Quote:
Al-Quraishi wrote:
Howsabout we make a literal translation of each word in a sentence:
This has been done by many and only causes confusion because you can't take the Quran 100% literal, we can only stick to literal as much as we can as long as there is no compelling signs that we should not take it literal
Quote:
Al-Quraishi wrote:
For example, for La Ilaha Illa Allah - it would be literally be - No go except/but God,
I totally disagree with that, "La Ilah Ila Allah" should be translated as "No god but Allah"
Quote:
Al-Quraishi wrote:
however, obviously English requires additional syntax to Arabic in terms of making it understandable/readable -
Exactly, and we can use the footnotes for that with numbering next to the words (using the forum posting superscript bbcode feature) to make it easy for the readers to follow the notes according to the ref no next to the words that left untranslated
Again please read the whole thing I've said before commenting on sections , yes, obviously if we just applied the literal meaning it would make no sense, this is why some English translations assign a literal sentence (which is harder to read) between the English translation and the Arabic so that the reader may understand each word individually. In terms of just sticking literal words together, that would never work as English and Arabic have different grammar, which is why translating doesn't just involve translating each word but also compensating for the difference in syntax as best as possible by reconstructing the sentence with the closest meaning.
Quote:
Yes please, for example, when we translate a word and we meet this word again we have to use the same English word we used and be 100% consistant
There is something else that I remembered which is a problem with the above, Arabic words have a literal meaning within themselves, however in different contexts that literal meaning changes to a contextual meaning, so I'm not sure how consistent we'd be with this
Quote:
I agree with that, however the word itself means to submit to any one, in the religion context it only means to submit to Allah, on the other hand we see the word used when prophet Solaiman asked the Queen of sheba to submit to him, so I say we need to somehow deffrentiate between the two actions of submitting to a human and submitting to Allah
This is a good point, which highlights the intricacies of such an endeavour, a project such as this will surely test our abilities in being meticulous to the last detail.
Quote:
Sure, but I honestly believe that it should be No god but Allah, or No deity but Allah, as long as Allah stays the same because Allah is His name, this is obvious in the Bismellah
In terms of bismilleh, Western Christians and Jews have been using 'In the name of God' for centuries, and this has its origins in the middle eastern tradition.
And again, in terms of Allah I think we need to make the translation as best as possible for the English reader, and that means giving them everything in text that they will understand, I don't think translating Allah to God will sacrifice any literal meaning, on the contrary, the word Allah alienates alot of English people as they don't understand what it means, alot of them think it means a local god like Baal, astaghfirullah. Being half English and having an English wife who has converted I have experienced the problems with this issue. In my view the translation of God will be the most understandable - and at the end of the day this is what this translation is all about.
I cannot stress how important it will be to use the word God in this translation.
Posted:
Thu 10 May, 2007 2:52 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam bro
I'm still not convinced with your argument regarding the word Allah
my name is Ahmed in all languages, as you name is Quraishi in all languages,
the article you directed me to, is only discussing the word God, not the word Allah
on the other hand if you want to make Allah god, then it has to beThe God under you logic
Most if not All kafirs and most non Arabic speakers know well that the God of the Quran is named Allah
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject: Re:
Hey bro, i am up for it but just a little scared as it is the Quran, may Allaah help all of us and give us strength to make this task accomplished for the sake of Allaah.
One of the most important factors is team management, and distribution believe me my knowledge in Arabic is nil so i can do someother spade work as guided by you.
As usual we need a team leader and I nominate you, we can discuss through a common channel by discussing here, but i personally feel since its a huge task we got give more time in gelling together through calling, and conference chatting for more solid groundwork.
As through this we can assimilate ideas, brainstorm and streamline the way forward about our responsibilities. I hope this sounds fine mainly we have to work on our strengths and weaknesses.
Take care
Salamvalekum
Posted:
Thu 10 May, 2007 8:29 am
Al-Quraishi Site Admin
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
Quote:
my name is Ahmed in all languages, as you name is Quraishi in all languages,
So then does that mean we will not be translating Ar-Rahman, Al Aziz or Al Jabbar? These are terms that describe God in his infinite qualities. It's going to be a pretty poor translation if English readers are going to be left befuddled with these descriptions-turned contextual nouns, or will they be forever having to refer to notes at the bottom of the page? There will be no ease of read and the ultimate goal of the translation will be flawed.
Quote:
on the other hand if you want to make Allah god, then it has to beThe God under you logic
Well no, that's no logic at all and most certainly not mine, I have stated that if we want to make a translation we need to be consistent with the syntax for each language, not make them mix, what you've just done there is apply the definite article 'al' in Arabic, and translated and applied it in English which is incorrect as the definite articles for each language don't work in the same way.
As a matter of fact I we look at the languages comparatively, what you have done is a gross violation of English grammar and a violation of the singular concept of God in English. 'The' is the article used for members of a set or group, i.e. by stating 'The God' you are insinuating the concept is part of this, in English God must be God i.e. there is an absent article. Arabic's article is used in a much more widespread manner, both nouns and adjectives take the definite article which is not present in most languages.
My logic states quite simply that the English word for 'Allah' is 'God' the two concepts are identical, the link I showed highlighted the difference between 'god' and 'God' it also states the concept of 'God' as being the one and only almighty God.
I think there are many things to iron out and understand even before work on this translation begins, it's a big responsibility and a thorough knowledge in both languages is a fundamental requirement.
Posted:
Thu 10 May, 2007 8:45 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Quote:
my name is Ahmed in all languages, as you name is Quraishi in all languages,
Al-Quraishi wrote:
So then does that mean we will not be translating Ar-Rahman, Al Aziz or Al Jabbar?
Salam bro
I actually thought about that but forgot to mention it in my comment, yes i believe those names should stay the same, in the notes however we explain everyone, see the project is not only about tranlsating the Quran accurately but as well educating those non Arab sppeakers and make them get closer to the language of the Quran while at the same time understanding the meaning from both the straightforward translation and the notes
Al-Quraishi wrote:
These are terms that describe God in his infinite qualities. It's going to be a pretty poor translation if English readers are going to be left befuddled with these descriptions-turned contextual nouns,
They will not be left blunded, we will explain everything in the notes, at least we will not disturb the verse by tranlsating those tough words that needs english sentences to describe the meaning, I guess organinsing it and how the navigation and links works will be the main factor in making it easy to use and understand and at the same time learning a bit of the Arabic in the Quran.
Al-Quraishi wrote:
or will they be forever having to refer to notes at the bottom of the page?
Not forever really, because as the words are repeated they should learn what they mean. see in any Quran argument what will stand is the Arabic words used so we will educate the non Arabic speakers to learn some vital words in the Arabic Quran and at the same time they won't miss on knowing what the words mean in English
Al-Quraishi wrote:
There will be no ease of read and the ultimate goal of the translation will be flawed
As i said, organising it and using the url tags as well the superscript bbcode features will be the deciding factor in how easy it is, at the end of the day I really prefer it NOT TYPICAL and it has to be unique.
I will be in charge for that part, I will try to design a sample module and show it to everyone and get some feedback so we can see if it will work
Quote:
on the other hand if you want to make Allah god, then it has to beThe God under you logic
Al-Quraishi wrote:
Well no, that's no logic at all and most certainly not mine, I have stated that if we want to make a translation we need to be consistent with the syntax for each language, not make them mix,
Sure we have to be consistent, what I'm saying is Allah is a name, it will be misleading to the non Arabic speakers to translate it to God, because the objective is to make them understand the Arabic Quran, not really tranlsating as such, I guess the Project name should be changed a bit, what we can do is in the notes explain this issue of Al Illah and god and The God,
Al-Quraishi wrote:
what you've just done there is apply the definite article 'al' in Arabic, and translated and applied it in English which is incorrect as the definite articles for each language don't work in the same way.
I agree, however I don't see Al in Allah, because it has to be Al Illah, i.e. you need to omit a lam and an an laif to make it Allah, why we do this because Allah is a name and names should not be translated as far as common sense goes, we can have a go at the meaning of those names in the notes.
Al-Quraishi wrote:
As a matter of fact I we look at the languages comparatively, what you have done is a gross violation of English grammar and a violation of the singular concept of God in English. 'The' is the article used for members of a set or group, i.e. by stating 'The God' you are insinuating the concept is part of this, in English God must be God i.e. there is an absent article. Arabic's article is used in a much more widespread manner, both nouns and adjectives take the definite article which is not present in most languages.
See, that is what I'm worried about, is we get carried away with the rules and english grammar and make the Arabic fit, I donlt think it should work this way, we donlt need to worry about the english grammar nor its rules, what we need to worry about is the Arabic grammar and its rules, i.e. we have to make the English fit the Arabic not the other way around, and to avoid a possible confusion to the English non Arabic speakers, the notes will come very handy
on the other hand you can't deny that we are only doing it with English because this is the standard langugae that all will read it in, it is not like all who can't read Arabic are english speakers, rather they know toa degree the most comonly used language in the world which is English, so we donlt need to worry about its grammar nor its rules as long as we explain ourselves in the notes
Al-Quraishi wrote:
My logic states quite simply that the English word for 'Allah' is 'God' the two concepts are identical, the link I showed highlighted the difference between 'god' and 'God' it also states the concept of 'God' as being the one and only almighty God.
Fine, but Allah is a name and we should teach the non Arabic speakers what the Arabic Quran teaches that Allah is His name
Al-Quraishi wrote:
I think there are many things to iron out and understand even before work on this translation begins,
I agree
Al-Quraishi wrote:
it's a big responsibility and a thorough knowledge in both languages is a fundamental requirement.
I agree with the big responsibility and I believe I'm up to it, are you up to it?
on the other hand I donlt agree that we need to be fluent in English, we only need to be fluent in Arabic, but if our team is also fluent in English then piece of cake of course and will come very handy
Remember we are teaching the Arabic Quran, it is not really a translation as such
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
lol Akhi, this seems to be one of the few issues we actually disagree on!
If you can create this sample to demonstrate how it will work that will help alot, until then I remain skeptic, I have serious reservations about having to continually rely on footnotes, I believe the Qur'an can be translated into English quite well without having to rely on additional tafsir of this manner.
Quote:
I agree with the big responsibility and I believe I'm up to it, are you up to it?
Well the more I think about it the more I realise what a big responsibility it is from us to those who will be reading it! I'm going to think about it, I'd love to see a small example with a quality of God and the descriptions necessary if there is going to be no translation of this.
Quote:
on the other hand I donlt agree that we need to be fluent in English, we only need to be fluent in Arabic, but if our team is also fluent in English then piece of cake of course and will come very handy
Come on now this is illogical! For one to make a competent English translation of the Qur'an one must be competent in both Arabic and English!
I wonder how many people in Free Islam are fluent in both, the more there are the easier and more accurate this task will be.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You cannot download files in this forum
All times are GMT + 10 Hours Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com
, yes, obviously if we just applied the literal meaning it would make no sense, this is why some English translations assign a literal sentence (which is harder to read) between the English translation and the Arabic so that the reader may understand each word individually. In terms of just sticking literal words together, that would never work as English and Arabic have different grammar, which is why translating doesn't just involve translating each word but also compensating for the difference in syntax as best as possible by reconstructing the sentence with the closest meaning.
